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MINUTES OF THE PATIENTS FORUM MEETING HELD ON THURSDAY 15TH MARCH HELD AT THE CONSUMERS’ ASSOCIATION  

Present: Clara Mackay – Chair (Consumers’ Association); Francine Bates – Vice Chair (Contact a Family); John Knape (UKCC); James Appleyard (BMA); Rahana Mohammed (LMCA); Karen Thomson (Diabetes UK); Frances Presley (ACHCEW); Elizabeth Manero (London Health Link); Aine Dolan (POPAN); Geraldine Amos (Home from Hospital); Hew Helps (Chiropractic Patients Association);  Philip Harris (Help for Health Trust); George Levvy (MND Association); Lucy Widenka (for Mike Took – NSF);  Sally Williams (Consumers’ Association); Howard Lewis (RNIB);  Will Anderson (King’s Fund); Brian McGinnis (MENCAP); Judith Wardle (Continence Foundation); Gerda Loosemore-Reppen (RNID); Les Hill (NAPP); Micky Willmott (Age Concern England); Jonathan Ellis (Help the Aged); Jane Belman (LVSC); Kristin McCarthy (Doctor Patient Partnership); Jo Hampton (GMC); In attendance:  Diana Basterfield (Patients Forum)  

Apologies:  Imelda Redmond (CNA); Eva Jacobs (Hon.Treasurer); Debbie Smith (Anchor Trust); Alison Soliman (Dementia Relief Trust); Saranjit Sahota (National Consumers Council); Kussum Joshi (Confederation of Indian Organisations); Susan Savage (UKCC); Lizzie Chambers (ERIC); Mark Paulson (GMC); Mike Took (NSF); Eileen Neilson (Royal Pharmaceutical College); Irene Mackay (Coeliac Society); Becky Miles (National Cancer Alliance); Ruth Taylor (Haemophilia Society); Gerry Mahaffey (Princess Royal Trust for Carers); Barbara Meredith (Age Concern London); John Tait (Relatives & Residents Association);  Beverley Beech (AIMS)  

1.            Minutes of meeting held on 18th January 2001  

The minutes were agreed  

2.         Matters arising  

No matters arising not included on the Agenda/chair's report  

3.         Chair’s report  

(a) Patients Forum 2001 Conference – “Shaping the agenda – the UK Patients Movement.”   It was reported that the conference had been very successful and that feedback on the formal evaluation was very positive.  

(b) NHS Conference 30/1/01: It was reported that the Chair had spoken on behalf of the Patients Forum at this conference.  

(c) Clean Hospitals initiative: members were reminded that at the previous meeting there had been a long and productive discussion on this issue and a lot of information has been pulled together to feed back to NHS Estates, the group leading on this work.It was reported that the initial meeting with the NHS Estates meeting had not been very productive and a further meeting had been requested.  

(d) Preparations for AGM: It was confirmed that a decision had been taken to move the patients Forum AGM from July to September.  It was also agreed to extend the AGM invitations to organisations beyond the patients Forum membership and to hold an event with a panel discussion. Members were asked to think about proposals for theme.  

(e) Meeting with Gisela Stuart:  It was reported that this meeting had gone well.  The participants were Jonathan Ellis (Help the Aged), Angela Burke (ACHCEW), Clara and Diana. Some of the key concerns about the Health and Social Care Bill were raised, as well as concerns about the consultation process around the Guide to the NHS as well as on the content of the Guide itself.  It was agreed that a letter should be sent on behalf of the Patient Forum raising these points.    

(f)     Health and Social Care Bill it was reported that a meeting had been held with a DoH representative on the patient confidentiality and patient information clause in the bill.  It was agreed that the Patients Forum would follow through with meetings on guidance and regulations falling out from the Bill.  

(g)   NHS Information Authority: it was reported that Marlene Winfield from the NHS Information Authority had given a presentation to a small group on the work of the Authority. It was agreed that she would be invited to speak at a future Patients Forum meeting.  

(i)  Meeting at autumn Party Conferences:  It was reported that the Patients Forum was working with three other organisations, LMCA, Carers National Association and Contact a Family, on organising a fringe meeting at each of the  party conferences in the autumn.  There will be a report back at the next meeting on progress.  

4.   Presentation on the Patient and Public Involvement Project Research - Christine Hogg (see  below) 

5.            Information exchange 

Jo Hampton (GMC): The GMC had two new consultation documents on their website this week. One on future governance and structure of the GMC, the other on the review of their fitness to practice procedures.  The consultation is open until 23rd April.  

Kristin McCarthy (Doctor Patient Partnership):  Reported that the DPP are in their last year of funding and are waiting to hear the outcome of their Section 64 application. She also reported that they are going ahead with a number of campaigns  - one on kids and health focussing on sexual health and on nutrition. She also reported that they are running their annual missed appointments campaign and that this year they are doing research with King’s College looking at why people miss their appointments and also telling surgeries what they can put in place to make it easier for people to cancel their appointments.  

Jane Belman (LVSC): Jane Belman reported that she is talking with the NHS London Region about how they can work together on developing good practice about patient involvement once the Bill has been passed.  She also reported that she is working to strengthen the voluntary sector voice on the London Health Commission and is leading a working group on promoting community development approaches to health across the statutory sector in London. She is also working with the King’s Fund on a conference linking regeneration and the role of the NHS as an employer, including how the NHS relates to the voluntary sector to promote regeneration and employment - and will be following that up looking at the way the NHS contracts with the voluntary and community sector to develop better services and also contributes to regeneration.  

Micky Willmott (Age Concern England): It was reported that Age Concern has been doing a lot of work on the Health and Social Care Bill and has produced a very large number of amendments and briefings. If members wanted they would be happy to supply them.   

Gerda Loosemore-Reppen (RNID):  It was reported that RNID held a successful question time with the Greater London Authority and a number of issues had been put forward which it was hoped would be acted on in the future.  They have also been working on a report on audiology services – UK waiting times and other quality issues – due to be published shortly.   The Children’s Best Practice Standards would be on their website by the end of March and anyone interested in Social Services for deaf children would be welcome to comment on those.

Brian McGinnis (MENCAP): The new guidelines on consent to medical treatment  were expected out shortly. They had been agreed by Ministers the previous day.The new guidelines were out and these were fairly good except in relation to people unable to speak for themselves.  

Judith Wardle (The Continence Foundation): It was reported The CF that they have been working for a long time with Customs and Excise on VAT and had taken part in a recent discussion about continence products available from retail sources. These would now be zero rated on the shelf. They still have to work on the wording so this would not happen immediately. Last year the DH produced guidelines on continence services and they would be working with the RCN on a research project to see which primary care trusts would be following the guidelines.   

Will Anderson (King’s Fund): It was reported that the King's Fund are planning a conference on October 22nd on patient and public involvement in the health service which would bring together various strands of their work. Two initiatives were also being started (a) the possibility of a learning network to bring together people from local health economies, groups of people who span the voluntary sector, the health service and local authorities to try and work out how they could make the most of the opportunities in the NHS Plan, reflecting on their current experience, their current expertise and the breadth of what they were currently doing.   (b) Julia Neuberger, their Chief Executive, was also chairing a parallel series of discussions where she was inviting a small number of voluntary sector organisations to think about the same kind of themes.   They hope that this will feed into the October conference and into the briefing paper that will set out the broader concerns and how the NHS Plan can be used as an opportunity rather than as an obstacle.  

Les Hill (National Association for Patient Participation): It was reported that the NAPP were putting the final touches to their conference on 9th June in Birmingham.  They were having great difficulty in finding a GP who would speak against patient involvement.  The title of the conference was “The Way Forward.”  

Phil Harris (Help for Health Trust):  Their Centre for Health Information Quality had just started an accreditation service for NHS digital TV pilots and over the new few weeks they were looking to develop a set of quality standards for information material disseminated through these TV pilots.  The emphasis would be on evidence base, accessibility, balance and bias of the information.  He hoped to be able to circulate information on this to Patient Forum members shortly for comment.  

Hew Helps (Chiropractice Patients Association): It was reported that the Association were working to become a charitable trust.  

Geraldine Amos (Home from Hospital): It was reported that HFH are concerned about the effect of the cuts in Social Services at the moment. For example, if a patient goes home from hospital, and the patient is unable to get in or out of bed, they can either have someone for half an hour to put them to bed, or for half an hour to get them out of bed, but SSD’s cannot afford both.   

Aine Dolan (Prevention of Professional Abuse Network (POPAN): POPAN is developing a training package to use with professionals in the NHS around the issues of the abuse of patients and clients. They are also members of a consultation group looking at protection of vulnerable adults guidelines. They are travelling around the country doing awareness-raising work with service users as well. 

Frances Presley (ACHCEW):  Most of their time had been taken up with lobbying and producing amendments on the Health and Social Care Bill.   All those amendments were now with the House of Lords.  They had been pushing for two areas, a statutory national body and that CHCs should be reformed and not abolished. They were also doing casualty watch on March 26th which was when they monitored waiting times in A and E departments.  

Lucy Widenka (National Schizophrenia Fellowship): one of their current campaigns was on the Mental Health Act and as part of the Mental Health Alliance Alliance they had a week of action from 2 – 8 April.  They have produced a campaign pack that can be obtained from NSF. 

George Levvy (Motor Neurone Association): It was reported that the MNA's current concern is the new national service framework for long term medical conditions, particularly neurological ones.    

 Rahana Mohammed (LMCA):  LMCA had held a conference looking at self-management for people with long-term conditions.  They are awaiting the report from the Expert Patients Task Force – due in May – and their conference fed back into this. They are also doing a lot of response work around the national  service framework for people with long term conditions.   Their AGM is on May 14th, which will be followed by a policy forum. 

James Appleyard (BMA):  It was reported that the BMA had produced a report on the funding of the health service – this involved not only doctors but also focus groups including the voluntary sector.  The conclusion they came to, unsurprisingly, was that central funding was the most efficient way of doing things, certainly in money terms. This raised the ongoing issue of rationing.   

Beverly Beech (Association for Improvements in Maternity Services):  It was reported that AIMS is concerned about the shortage of midwives. The problem is the increasing the numbers of complaints by women who are not attended during their birth but are left for long periods sharing one midwife with five other women. The other new work they have been involved with is a book, called “Birthing your Baby” all about “normal birth.“  This was due out in two weeks. 

Clara Mackay (Consumers Association):  It was reported That CA is finalising a policy report on information on prescription drugs and the promotion of prescription drugs and a report on professional regulation.  

Francine Bates (Contact a Family): It was reported that CaF are working on the national service framework on children. There had been very little about children’s health services in the NHS Plan and this was of great concern to a number of organisations, including her own. CAF is also organising an awareness week starting on the 14th of May.  They are concentrating on three issues, the three D’s – raising awareness among doctors about the prevalence of rare diseases and getting them to refer much earlier than they do to prevent later problems from developing – earlier diagnosis and developing treatment.  There is a dearth of treatments for children’s rare diseases primarily because the pharmaceutical industry does not think it is worth investing in this. CAF are bringing together a wide group of parents and children who have rare diseases on these three common issues.   

6.         Next meeting   

Thursday 24th May 
2.00 at Consumers’ Association 

AGM Thursday 13th September

 

Presentation by Christine Hogg:  Patient and public involvement in the NHS – Interim results of the Scoping Study.  Patients Forum March 15, 2001 

Christine began by saying that that the document was still at an interim stage and consultation and comments would be very welcome.     

They had started out by looking at the three different agendas relating to patient and public involvement.       

  •       Government agenda – they wanted to ensure that the new arrangements for patient and public involvement at local level would be effective.

  •       Voluntary sector agenda  – looking for a much stronger national role

  •       CHC agenda – felt they had a lot of experience over 25 years and didn’t want the wheel re-invented.

Interim findings.  It was generally, but not universally, agreed that there should be a new organisation; that it should be based on an alliance of statutory services, such as Patients’ Councils, and the voluntary health sector; that the functions might be to oversee support and training, standards and monitoring; it should provide a strong voice for patients and public at a national level (based on research based); It should be facilitative and enabling; have statutory rights; commission rather than do; have regional networks;  should be accountable to its members and to Parliament and be publicly funded.

The main areas of concern were that if the body were statutory this could lead to a loss of independence  (but there was agreement on the need for rights and public funding); whether it would be feasible to combine statutory bodies (Patients Councils) and the voluntary health sector; whether having a collective voice could stifle smaller groups and people not part of traditional networks; that having both support and monitoring functions could be difficult to combine.

The role of a national body.   It was felt this should provide a strong voice for patients and the public in the NHS nationally; provide a gateway for Government and other public and professional bodies to access views of patients and carers;  set standards and provide support and training for patient, carer and public representatives and encourage effective involvement, and ensure advocacy and representation for people who were not part of traditional networks.  This last was very widely supported.

Four models for a national body were suggested by the scoping study.  a statutory organisation overseeing Patients Councils and representatives on public bodies; a federation of voluntary organisations;  a statutory partnership organisation shared between patients/public and other stakeholders; an integrated membership organisation covering Patients Councils and the voluntary sector. 

The consultation had shown that most people wanted an organisation with statutory rights. (ACHCEW didn’t have any statutory rights - only had the right to exist).   These rights should include the right to information, to be consulted, to be answered by government when they made a statement or produced a report.  As a body it should commission research, training etc rather than try and do it itself.  There were a lot of organisations that already produced reports and did training and the body should not try to duplicate or compete with existing organisations or expertise already around.   There needed to be regional networks to enable information exchange, peer support and assistance in dealing with issues at a local level as well as specialist commissioning.  Some of the CHCs felt these should correspond to NHS regions.   Without regional networks the bureaucracy in a central body could become far too top heavy and top down.  It needed to be a bottom up organisation with a flow of information both ways.   It should be accountable to members, to Parliament (not just the Department of Health) and to the public.  (In terms of the collective voice element, it should be a membership organisation – from Patients Councils and the voluntary health sector.)   

The four models were discussed by the Patient and Public Involvement Project Advisory Group which consists of the College of Health, the Long Term Medical Conditions Alliance, Citizens Advocacy Information and Training, NACAB, Consumers’ Association, Black and Ethnic Minority Community Care Forum, ACHCEW, National Consumer Council, Action for Victims of Medical Accidents, Diabetes UK, Professor Judith Allsop from De Montfort University and observers from the Department of Health and the NHS Information Authority. The comments on the four models were as follows:   

Statutory organisation overseeing Patients Councils  It was felt that this would be a revitalised ACHCEW with regional networks but there were concerns about the structure.  It would not meet the voluntary sector agenda and it would maintain the split between the statutory and voluntary sector at national level. 

Federation of voluntary organisations.   This was favoured by some voluntary sector organisations . A federation structure had the obvious advantage that organisations could build up working relationships to their own agenda, not the government’s.   The disadvantages included that it would not necessarily give the government what it wanted in terms of Chapter 10 and patient accountability.  Also it would have no statutory rights and no guaranteed funding.  Very soon it could be seeking Section 64 funding and be competing with its own member organisations for funding.  

A statutory partnership organisation.    This could be a Public Participation Partnership, similar to CHI, with patient public representatives and other stakeholders.  The advantage would be that it would provide strong collaboration at national level.   It was not felt that this would give a strong voice to patients and the public at local level. There were doubts whether the voluntary sector was well enough developed to be able to hold its own and whether there would be ownership by constituents.  

An integrated membership organisation.  This was the model favoured by the whole Advisory Group.   It would cover Patients Councils and the voluntary sector.   This would have the advantage of bringing all patient /public interests together at national level.  The disadvantage would be that there could be tensions between the different ‘arms’ and obviously the design of the structure would be extremely important. One suggestion was that the governing body should have one third of its members coming from national voluntary groups, one third elected representatives from regional networks of Patients Councils and Patients Forums and one third lay people - to fill in any gaps in representation.  

Christine concluded by talking about the next stage of the process.   There would need to be further consultation to ensure that any body set up was able to unite groups promoting patient/public involvement in a common purpose without segmenting patients/public interest or deflecting groups from their own agenda.  The outcome of the amendments to the Health and Social Care Bill being put in the House of Lords would also need to be considered.  There may need to be transitional arrangements to undertake the urgent work on developing guidance, setting standards and designing training and support for Patients Councils and related bodies.   Work on developing the collective voice could develop more slowly to ensure that there was full consultation about any proposed structure and to make sure that it met the needs of voluntary organisations, large and small, and in particular people who were not part of traditional networks.  

The deadline for comments on the paper previously circulated to Patients Forum members was Tuesday, 20th March.  

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  Last updated 21/5/2001   © The Patients Forum 2001